Under “Can a Christian be Gay,” reader Jan shares her concern over a gay brother-in-law. Her response brings up three significant issues: one, the recognition by homosexuals that whether their orientation is caused by nature or nurture, their behaviors and lifestyle are matters of choice; two, the fallacy that our private choices have no negative social consequences and, thus, are of no civil or moral concern; and three, the lengths to which some will go for affirmation, even to the point of contorting Scripture to make it approve what it plainly reproves.

My wife has a friend I'll call "Becky," who had been in a committed 12-year lesbian relationship. Immediately after the 9/11 terrorist attacks, Becky began noticing married couples with children and realizing, for the first time, how different the social design of man, woman and child was from her relationship. After a couple of sleepless nights she went to pastors in three different denominations to ask whether she should terminate the relationship. All three were shocked at her suggestion and counseled that it would be a mistake: the love for her partner "was a divine gift to be thankful for, not reject!"

Amazingly, that didn't square with Becky (who wasn't even a spiritual person at the time), so she decided to investigate what the Bible said about the matter. After borrowing a Bible from a friend, the first verse Becky read was 2 Timothy 4:3: "For the time will come when men will not put up with sound doctrine. Instead, to suit their own desires, they will gather around them a great number of teachers to say what their itching ears want to hear."

Somehow Becky knew she had been told a great lie by, of all people, the clergy. That led to a scriptural study which confirmed her new suspicions about homosexuality: same-sex orientation was a distortion of God's original design, and homosexual behavior a sin.

Shortly thereafter she left her partner and began her Christian walk—a walk, I might add, that has not been without significant struggles and a few defeats, but that nonetheless has been marked by growing confidence in her true identity and increased ability to overcome the pull of the old lifestyle.

Comments

[Brian]

In the same way that Jan noticed the devastation wrecked by the termination of her brother-in-law's divorce, I wonder what the negative consequences of this private decision were and I worry for the moral and civil repercussions of it.

My prayers go out to Becky's ex-partner for a life and a relationship torn apart based on the distortions of God's holy word to support the fears and prejudices of millennia past.

And most importantly, my prayers stay with Becky that she might know God loves and affirms her and our Creator has marvelous things in store for her. I look forward to the many good things God will use her for--whatever they may be.

And I hope that she will always know, her love is not a sin.

[Gina Dalfonzo]

Brian, I think it's possible you may have misread Regis's post, because he says that a few different pastors told Becky that her love was not a sin. It was Becky herself, while reading the Bible -- with little or no background knowldege of "the fears and prejudices of millennia past," to borrow your words -- who came to the conclusion that she had been lied to by those pastors. Now, Regis doesn't specifically say that she did her scriptural study without any help, so it's possible that someone helped her "confirm her suspicions."

But it seems to me from Regis's post is that Becky reached her conclusions directly by reading the Bible, which I don't think quite fits with the impression you got about her story.

[Brian]

Thanks for that point of clarification Gina. As you pointed out, we can't be sure whether or not Becky's study was conducted solo or with assistance, but as a gay person in America, I understand that no one is sheltered from anti-gay rhetoric.

We have a president who constantly demeans gay and lesbian relationships. We live in a country where Christian leaders routinely demonize gay people under the public spotlight, including Jerry Falwell who blamed the September 11 attacks on gays and lesbians. News of the tensions in the Anglican communion regarding the ordination of gay priests and bishops make national and international headlines. Critical military linguists are expelled from service because of their orientation.

It is difficult, dare I say impossible, to escape the fierce and frequent anti-gay rhetoric spewed forth from political and religious circles alike.

I am grateful for my personal faith in Jesus Christ which ultimately helped me to navigate these troubling times. I am hopeful that Becky will one day be able to turn to her newfound relationship with the Lord for the strength and guidance she needs to stand up to the unAmerican and immoral treatment of God's lesbian, gay, bisexual, and transgender children.

And I ask the tenor amongst Point bloggers and commenters both online and offline be not of one-sided diatribes but multi-faceted discussions. I know we have a lot to learn.

[Nicki]

I am a Christian with strong faith. It is that faith that has gotten me thru many hard times in my life. That being said, I am also gay. I have read the passages regarding Sodom & Gomorrah, these cities had many many problems for which God destroyed them. Not simply because of homosexual behavior. I believe in a God that doesn't make "mistakes". He is all knowing. He gave man freedom of will, which He did not bestow upon the animal kingdom. It has been argued for many years that it is this freedom of will that is the cause of man's/woman's homosexual behavior. That it is a choice made by the individual. However,animals that were also created by God and have no freedom of will have been documented in over 500 species to have homosexual relationships. I believe this is a powerful example that would explain that homosexual behavior is not simply a choice made by a human, but an instint found in man and animal alike. It is with knowledge such as this, that I am secure in my relationship and not in "Becky's" situation. I hope she is happy in the choice she has made to try to turn her back on her instincts and that it doesn't cause her more pain.

[David Cervera]

Apologies in advance for diverging a bit. On the point that homosexual behavior has been observed in animal species: well, there are also many animals that will eat their own children if the young don't escape quickly enough. Incest, polygamy, cannibalism - even rape has been observed in species as closely related to us as chimpanzees. Any "abhorrent" behavior you care to mention can probably be observed in the wild (well, ok, there's not a lot of idol worship going on amongst our furry friends, but you get the point). That's not to say homosexuality is right or wrong, but we certainly can't point to the animal kingdom to legitimize it.

[Sy Hoekstra]

So Brian, I know that Soul Force has had a couple run-ins with Chad Thompson, who wonders why God helps peple like himself or Becky to overcome homosexuality. I think that's a fair question that any gay Christian would have to answer. Why would God bother helping people like Becky to turn away from homosexuality if he thought it was alright?`

[Gerard]

This reminded me of the phrase “No Jesus, no change, Know Jesus, know change.” Christians filled with the Holy Spirit will somehow hear a call to change and be pure in Christ. Any Christian pursuing a life of righteousness or freedom from any sin will experience a struggle. It’s not easy and one will always be drawn back to its old self. Becky’s life (or mine) is not perfect. But the imperfections and struggles don’t define her identity anymore no matter how natural the feeling may be. God’s word says, if we align our will to His, progress is possible and we’ll reflect His identity. The point is the power of Christ can make a difference and bring freedom to those who struggle with their homosexual feelings. It’s a daily choice to surrender to Christ.

[nick]

I dont think god exists
and u have no right to
say gay is wrong

[Regis Nicoll]

Brian—As Gina indicated, Becky discovered the truth about homosexuality on her own by acknowledging how the special revelation of scripture confirmed the general revelation of human sexuality. This is nothing short of miraculous considering Becky’s spiritual “maturity” at the time and the fact that clergy who counseled her sent her off with a spate of gay-affirming material—including a revisionist exegesis of Paul’s writings suggesting that his “thorn” was a homosexual orientation. While I agree that “distortions of God’s holy word to support the fears and prejudices of millennia past” is wrong, it is equally wrong to distort His word for the purpose of affirming, approving or blessing homosexual relationships.

[mikeijames]

perhaps i'm just not learned in these matters, but why is it that the evangelical movement seems to allow for more hermeneutical readings of new testament passages (I Corinthians 14:34-25, let's say) on almost every other issue, but remains so rigid on the issue of sexuality in the modern world? the personal relationship one has with his or her Savior is exactly that, personal, and just like it's impossible to meet out the inner workings in someone's relationships in everyday life, how does one find agency to insert themselves in the middle of the private faith matters between a Christian and their God?! whether or not God spoke to Becky's heart is between Becky and God not between all of us and Becky. similarly, those who choose to live their lives with those they love who choose to have a personal relationship with God have to work out their issues of faith not with the Christian population at large, but between themselves and God -- why is that an unreasonable notion?

[Mark]

You are all missing the bigger picture. You bicker about what a 2000 year-old book, after countless revisions, says, while all the while missing the obvious reality that your lives would be far better simply relying on reason rather than the supernatural. I'll have you know that the difference from right and wrong was around far before your Bible. Look around the world. What is the source of most human suffering? famine? drought? disease? No, it is self-righteousness based on religious beliefs. One only has to turn on the tv and see the Middle East as a perfect example of the harm of religion. The human species, with all of its abilities, has yet to escape the violent tendencies of its ancestral past. So while we continue to justify our violence masked as religious bigotry, we further stagnate our development into a truly respectable species. Instead we greedily use of resources while destroying our only home. We disregard human suffering where help could easily by given simply because we don't have a vested interest in that location. We can thank the religious-right(wrong) for our current president and the mess he has created. Why was he elected? Homophobic Christians, period. In an election that close, no other issue can be traced to have had such a strong impact on voter turn out in this country. Christians are tools. Where do we see these tools so prevalent? You don't have to look far. Just look at the poorest, most undereducated, most Christian portions of this country for such scripture-fueled bigotry. I would also like to point out the painfully obvious fact that a low education, low socio-economical status, and strong reliance on religion go hand-in-hand. Just find the red states and compare those to the commonly released scales of our states' educational systems. Wake up! Stop judging people on something that doesn't harm others. Why can't there be whole Christian groups out lobbying against things that REALLY harm people? Does John and Alex's marriage next door really have any effect on you? No it doesn't. You can lie to yourself, or contort reality in a way that may portray some psychological effect, but when the dust of religion settles, the reality of wrongful judgment is apparent. For those Christians who have posted in support of your fellow humans that happen to exhibit a different, naturally occurring sexual orientation, you are your religion's only hopes of survival in a world where religion's resistance to move forward is truly proving to be its undoing. Yes, homosexuality occurs in OTHER animals, and yes, it is an important point to make. We can safely make such connections, because cannibalism, rape, incest, and other observed behaviors are all behaviors that have negative outcomes on the lives of individuals whether that individual is a chimpanzee, dolphin, human, or any other animal. Humans don't cannibalize each other, because that harms someone. We don't rape, because that too harms. We don't have incest because of the genetic consequences. Our ancestors, while they had no knowledge of allelic frequencies in gene pools, knew that incest increased the likelihood of disorder and disease. In an attempt to avoid mortality, we slowly ingrained into the fabrics of our societal norms the avoidance of such behaviors. Homosexuality has no negative consequences. No, children cannot currently be produced from two males or two females, although I don't believe the species is in any trouble of underpopulation. We also must respect that the rate of homosexuality among the human species is very similar to the rate observed in other, closely related species. These connections cannot be ignored if any at all observance to modern biological science is to exist. When you get really sick, where do you go? The church? The hospital? While most of you may pray to be healed, you accompany that heart-felt prayer with a trip to your local doctor or hospital. You rely on science in matters of life and death. While you may give unproven credit to your prayer, you know deep down that what really saved you was the medical treatment you received. Don't choose to ignore science only when it suits your bigotry or religious beliefs. The proof of homosexuality's biological roots are right in front of you throughout kingdom Animalia. You, human, are just another member of that group. Your larger brain gives you higher-level reasoning and the ability to see and judge the consequences of your actions. How do your actions affect the lives of homosexual humans? That is just one of the many problems we should be trying to solve in our society.

[labrialumn]

Why do you call Him "Lord, Lord" if you will not do the things that He says?

[Brian]

Sy, having never met Chad Thompson myself I can only speak in abstractions but I have listened to some of his podcasts.

Chad says that he was gay. He says that he has a personal relationship with Jesus Christ. He says that now he is not.

I say that I was gay. I say that I have personal relationship with Jesus Christ. I say that now I am still gay.

It is troubling for me that I must accept Chad's assertion that he was gay, his statement of Christian faith, and his newfound declaration of non-gayness all the while my own personal experiences are discounted. I can not be sure that he was ever gay. I cannot be sure that he has a relationship with Christ. And I cannot be sure that he is now not gay. Yet I am asked to believe these things. Yet when I turn around and offer my own testimony, it is discounted. Why do you count Chad's experiences as valid and yet not mine?

What I hear is: Maybe you aren't a Christian. Maybe you don't have enough faith. Maybe you haven't waited long enough. Maybe you don't want to change. Maybe you're lying.

And those are painful things for me to hear.

After listening to Chad's testimony I was devastated. Chad did not once address the question of "is change necessary?" but instead focused on how he saw himself changed. He touched upon a few things that "make people gay" (none of which were applicable to me) and through his stories gave insight into his past.

I think the more appropriate question is "what makes a person ex-gay?"

Chad Thompson was raised in a violently homophobic environment. He was constantly witness to anti-gay rhetoric and anti-gay jokes. He never once heard a supportive voice. I had it so much better and I still desired with all of my heart to not be gay ... I can only imagine the intensity with which he wanted to avoid such a fate. Indeed, in Chad's world, to be gay would be a horrendous fate.

I honor and respect Chad's story. I hope he is happy. Maybe he was bisexual and has chosen to only pursue relationships with women. Maybe he is gay but will abstain from any relationship. Maybe he has become straight. I do not know. But as a fellow Christian, I trust him when he says that he is at a place of peace with his Lord.

I only wish the same courtesy was extended to me.

[Regis Nicoll]

Brian—To any authentic Christian, the answer to “Is change necessary?” is a resounding “YES!” And that applies to every aspect of the “old self.” Transformation into Christlikeness is the very heart of discipleship. However, in contrast to denying self, carrying one’s cross, and following Him, the message of the Christian gay lobby amounts to affirming oneself, carrying one’s identity, and following one’s instincts.

[Shelley McMillen]

she say....Shortly thereafter she left her partner and began her Christian walk—a walk, I might add, that has not been without significant struggles and a few defeats, but that nonetheless has been marked by growing confidence in her true identity and increased ability to overcome the pull of the old lifestyle.

This can be done by overcome. I been there done that All through Jesus Christ. You have seen your appointment with Jesus and You ask him in your life and you continue daily seek him. We can do all things through Jesus Christ.
I walked away from the gay lifestyle 24 yrs ago.. was not easy but it can be done by His Love and Grace....Longsuffering can be added and it worth going through it... It is a choice of what Life we need for God..
My choice was walk away from gay, and Iam so glad I did..There is Hope there is a way...

[Brian]

So in your Christian walk you denied your ability to love a woman, to be her partner and helper, to have her be the same for you, to share a life together?

Of course being a Christian means carrying the cross daily. For if anyone is in Christ he is a new creation, the old has gone the new has come! And thank goodness for that!

Our old ways of thinking must go, being transformed by the spirit of Christ. Though sometimes it is difficult, I must make a conscious effort to take care of the poor and the sick, I must protect God's creation, I must live a life of honesty and integrity even when that means facing tough consequences, I must put God and others forward and first, I must not subscribe to a "I want what I want when I want it" mindset knowing that it does a disservice to my God, to those around me, and ultimately to myself. And must importantly, I trust in the plan that the Lord has laid out for me--even when that conflicts with the desires of my heart or the pressures of the world.

In Christ, the old self my surely die--I am in absolute agreement with you!

My cousin was married this past Saturday and I delighted in attending that service. I have seen how good she and her husband are for one another and I know that they will do wonderful things for their church, their family, and their community together in Christ. I hope that I too will find a partnership someday and if the Lord leads me to a marriage with a man, I trust my friends and family will be there to uplift and hold accountable that relationship as well.

[Regis Nicoll]

Brian—To put it as genteely as possible: if “the Lord leads [you] to marriage with a man” you can be sure that it is a different “lord” you are following. The Lord of the NT is the One who, instead of affirming same-sex unions, re-affirmed the created order in Genesis: “But at the beginning of creation God ‘made them male and female. For this reason a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife, and the two will become one flesh.’ So they are no longer two, but one.” As I mentioned in my BreakPoint piece: “This would have been an opportune time for Jesus to be inclusive and expand marriage to other constellations of relationships (man-man, woman-woman, groups, human-nonhuman, etc). Instead, He expands the reach of the Law. In a series of “You have heard . . . but I tell you,” Jesus informs his audience that not only is adultery wrong, even lustful looks are wrong. Notice that Jesus does not limit this teaching to married people, but to those who entertain desires for someone other than their spouse. Since there is no biblical provision for same-sex marriage, all unrestrained homosexual desire would also be, in Jesus’ judgment, sinful.” What’s more same-sex unions are intrinsically unable to fulfill the first commandment given man…to fill and multiply.

[Paul]

The book of Romans discusses our sinful nature. Put another way, we find it natural to want to sin. We often find the desire for a particular sin so strong that we come to a belief that we were created to commit that sin. While we are born with the desire to sin, we are also born the the ability to choose not to sin. The true measure of our character is how we choose to act on our desires.

[Rodney]

If you say you're gay and that you're a Christian, you've just created a new gospel. If you say that you're a Christian and you struggle with the habit of the old man be relieved because your in good company. A relationship is fusion not a joint. It is differences brought together to help both people prosper in the way they where intended. Anything else is a distortion of a universal truth.

[Sy Hoekstra]

"What I hear is: Maybe you aren't a Christian. Maybe you don't have enough faith.
Maybe you haven't waited long enough. Maybe you don't want to change. Maybe you're
lying.
And those are painful things for me to hear." Brian, you didn't hear any of that from me. I understand that you're trying to defend yourself against overwhelming opposition here, and that's tough, but don't lump me in with everyone else. All I asked is why you think God changes many homosexual people. You said that in the case of Thompson, his story is trusted while yours is not. Again, I never said that. I just think that between Chad, Becky, ms. McMillen, and the hundreds of others who claim to have walked away from homosexuality because of God, some of them have to be telling the truth. The only way you can refuse to anser the question about why God helps people walk away from homosexuality is by stating that anyone who has ever said God helped them do this is severely confused about their relationship with him, or lying. This seems to me highly unlikely, so I ask you again. Why would God help people walk away from homosexuality if he thought it was alright?
On a side note, there has been a lot of harsh, unnecessary, and often unexplained rhetoric directed at you in this little debate. For that, I apologize.

[Sy Hoekstra]

And oh yeah, Nick, we have the right to say whatever we want, buddy. You can disagree, but I won't question my right to freedom of speech.

[Brian]

Sy, I very much appreciate your approach to this conversation. I understand that you might not have intended to send those messages in your question, but when you asked "Why would God help those people to change if He thought being gay was alright" it seems to follow that He would then help me as well. And thus, since I have not changed, I must not have enough faith, I must not want it, I must be lying when I say I haven't been changed, haven't been convicted, or lying when I say I put my trust in the Lord.

Why would God NOT change me if he thought it necessary? might be a better question. What about Michael Busse, Peterson Tuscano, Christine Bakke, Daniel Gonzalez, countless others who have told their stories publicly and the unseen ones that I know just in my own private life who He has also not changed?

It is also important to understand what Chad Thompson, Alan Chambers, and many other ex-gay leaders mean when they say change. They do not mean that they are no longer gay. They mean that they have chosen to deny their sexual orientation and either not have any relationships or only have relationships with people of the opposite gender, even if they are not attracted to them, are not strongly attracted to them, or are still attracted to people of the same gender.

Alan Chambers recently said that he still to this day finds himself attracted to other men--every day in fact. In a personal conversation Chad Thompson had with a friend of mine, he said that he too is still attracted to guys. He also said that though he has decided to "change" (ie refrain from pursuing relationships with guys and attempt to pursue relationships with women), he does not think everyone can or that everyone should. If you take the time to ask the tough questions, this idealized notion of broad sweeping change from gay to straight isn't really what it appears to be to the outside world unfortunately.

Attention has been drawn to this and Alan Chambers has been attempt to clarify what "change" means in the Exodus ministries.

I am not Alan Chambers, or Chad Thompson, or Becky or anyone else so I cannot say what change looks like for them or why that change came about, if it did at all.

I can say that as I Christian I have found no change and as I continue my walk with Christ, I realize that it is not my God-given sexual orientation that needs to change but the misinformation and unquestioned prejudices and assumptions about what it means to be gay that need to change.

I hope together, we can be that change.

[Sy Hoekstra]

Well, the misinformation and prejudices and all that should be changed. No question there. And I understand that the total change from gay to straight is to simple to be possible. My problem is in your logic here: "when you
asked "Why would God help those people to change if He thought being gay was alright"
it seems to follow that He would then help me as well. And thus, since I have not
changed, I must not have enough faith, I must not want it, I must be lying when I
say I haven't been changed, haven't been convicted, or lying when I say I put my
trust in the Lord.
Why would God NOT change me if he thought it necessary? might be a better question." So, I don't know if you're lying or don't have enough faith or any of that. Far be it from me to judge that. What I don't understand is why you think God would necessarily change something in someone he thought was sinful. Take me and my buddies for example. There are a bunch of us in my fellowship on the campus of my school who have lust problems, along with about 90% of evangelical men. We pray, fast, struggle, do anything we can think of to rid ourselves of this sin by growing closer to God, but it never leaves. Ultimately, it's about trust in God and accountability in community. God very explicitly condemns lust, but he doesn't just get rid of it when we ask him to. I don't know why this is exactly, but in faith, I know he has his reasons, and all will be right in the end. So if homosexuality is a sin, and you trusted in God with all your heart, and asked him to rid you of those feelings, he will not necessarily change you imediately, or even any time soon. All Christians know this. We fight sins for years, and will still trip over them constantly. As Thompson points out, something like your homosexuality, or my heterosexuality, or any other psychological phenomenon develops over a long period of time, and it could take as long or longer to reverse itself.
So I hink my question still stands justified and unanswered, though perhaps it could do with some rewording.
Why does God assist people in the long, often painful struggle with their homosexuality, as he does with many other sins, if he thinks it's alright?
I too am quite appreciative of your attitude toward this discussion.

[Tim]

Brian,

Your statement about God not changing your desires, orientation, or whatever is a misunderstanding of our own responsibility in our walk with Christ. When Jesus told us to take up our cross and follow Him (Matt 16:24) He said first to deny ourselves. In another translation, the scripture says that we must turn from our selfish ways, take up our cross, and follow Him. He didn't say that He would remove our selfish ways or that He would carry our cross for us.

I guess the bottom line is that we must step out in faith and obey Him, but first we must be aware that there is a cost to being His disciple. In Luke 14:28, Jesus told us not to begin unless we count the cost. In the previous verse, the cost Jesus talked about was carrying our own cross and following Him.

The way we bear our cross is not to deny that our desires are sinful, but rather to choose to obey Christ instead of obeying our own desires.

[Gary]

I don't think Nick exists
and has no right to say God is wrong

[Sy Hoekstra]

I think you kind of missed my point there Gary.

[Gary]

I liked your "freedom of speech" part,Sy.
My response was to nick's comment.
Sorry for the misunderstanding.

[Gary]

"I can say that as a Christian I have found no change and as I continue to walk with Christ,I realize it is not my God-given alcoholic orientation that needs to change, but the misinformation and unquestioned prejudices and assumptions about what it means to be an alcoholic that need to change." What is the difference in being predisposed to one sin over another? If we wrestle greatly with any given sin more than others do we have the right to declare that particular sin no longer sin? Do we have the right to twist the meaning of scripture to make it conform to our desires? If so, who gave us this right? Not God.

[Tony]

What does it mean to "overcome" homosexuality? If a "gay" person "decides" to stop having sex with persons of the same sex... that makes them a "celibate gay person". That doesn't make them heterosexual.

Overcoming homosexuality means that you no longer have an orientation towards the same sex, but you now desire the opposite sex.

I have never seen a case where this has been achieved. I've seen gay people who've married the opposite sex, but were still "gay" because they truly desired to be with the same sex.

Is a relationship like that truly healthy? It seems unfair to commit to someone who will never truly satisfy you. And then to bring children into such dysfunction is a greater travesty.

[Gina Dalfonzo]

Haven't you seen it, Tony? I have.

I think where many of us Christians make our mistake is in claiming that homosexuals who turn to Christ and who want to change WILL change. That's not necessarily true, and we hurt ourselves and others when we insist on it. Many do not change, and the best that they can do is, with God's help, commit to celibacy. But sometimes, it does happen. As I said, I've seen it happen. One of the happiest and most stable families I've ever known is the result of just such a case.