Dennis Babish comments under yesterday's "Daily roundup":

The article about Willow Creek should be read by everyone. T M Moore speaks to this very thing in his new book "Culture Matters" . . . This article should have been one of the Point's articles and not buried in the daily roundup. So I ask the Point bloggers to do something great and discuss this article more and maybe even ask T M Moore to expound on what he said in his book.

Understood, Dennis, but some days we're doing well just to get articles into the roundup, let alone their own posts. It's just the old "too much to read, not enough time" syndrome rearing its ugly head again, which is also why I haven't yet gotten to my own copy of T. M.'s new book. Drowning in reading material is an occupational hazard around these parts. Also, we're still working on getting a review copy of the book discussed in the article, Reveal: Where Are You? (What a title -- sounds like a handbook for budding magicians.)

Nonetheless, the article is worthy of discussion, as you say, and as the heated debate underneath it demonstrates. Some of the biggest points of contention at the Out of Ur blog seem to be these:

• Is Willow Creek really "repenting" the model it's used for so long, or just revising it? Which of those should they be doing?
• Is the idea of making the congregation into "self feeders," as Bill Hybels puts it, going too far in the other direction?
• Whether or not they've been effective at discipling believers and helping them to mature, has Willow Creek at least been effective at reaching unbelievers for Christ?

I'll probably have more to say on the subject after I get to take a look at Reveal. But for now, does anyone want to share their own thoughts on these issues?

Comments

[Lee]

I actually saw (via satellite) Bill Hybels and Co. deliver that statement. It was a lot like listening to a CEO deliver a quarterly report where there had been a downturn of revenue and a change in the economic climate.

My church follows the WCA model to the letter, alas. Our leadership is also suddenly promoting the idea that all Christians need to become "self-feeders" - that the church itself has less responsibility for making disciples than the disciples themselves do. (Sorry, Gina - I'll bet your inbox just exploded.)

What I've observed is that a WCA church can become a revolving door - leading 'em to Christ, then watching them get disaffected and go elsewhere. It's good in that people are coming to Christ, and it's OK that they're finding churches where discipleship is a higher priority than evangelism, but it's tough to maintain that door as it revolves. You're constantly seeking replacements for positions of extremely high responsibility. Absent is the idea of serving faithfully for years in the worst of conditions, possibly with no visible fruit of your labors; that doesn't look good on the quarterly P+L statement.

I suspect this will cause all churches in the WCA to seek a more sustainable business model. "What's good for GM is good for America", and Phil. 1:18.

[Dennis Babish]

Gina,
I can certainly appreciate what you are saying. Trying to currently read my Centurion book of the month, Chuck's book on Faith, and oddly enough Hybels book "Just Walk across the Room" for the small group I'm leading, creating a class about pursuing holiness, and creating a new believers class outline is quite daunting and that doesn't count the excellent articles I try to read here at Point (see I like you guys).
But as you may guess I am passionate that the Christian influence has greatly diminished in this country and yet available Christian teaching is more available than ever before and what needs to be done about it. Barna's survey revealed only 15% of Christians rank their relationship with God as a high priority while pastor's believe 70% of their congregation view it as a high priority. Christians are spoon fed everything today, quite like secular culture, and nothing is expected of them. That's why I call them couch potatoes. This article about Willow Creek is another example of that. If you would put the name of almost any other church in the country the article would still apply.
How do we change this? In the first week of my holiness class I asked each person what they wanted out of this class. One person said she was tired of classes that just tell her what's in the Bible she wants to know how to apply it to her life. That's what's missing.
It's not self feeding, that won't work. It's not more programs that just have talking heads. It's transforming lives and doing the things that will make that happen.
Calvin did something called true learning and the result transformed lives in Geneva.
That is my hope in my class. Not to only teach them about holiness, but how to apply disciplines in their daily lives to transform them into holier Christians and then challenge them to commit doing it for 6 months and evaluate the changes in their lives.
If I was advising Hybels the first thing I would tell him is to get rid of that poster in front of his office. To quit selling God to people and instead begin drawing them to God.
Thanks again Gina for doing this article.
BTW the only reason I have already read T M's book is that it was our September book. But well worth it.

[Dennis Babish]

Lee,
I agree with you man. But I encourage you to speak up at your church. Self-feeding will not work. That is worse than the old way.
We have to quit being afraid that someone will be offended.
It's a sad story that Africa is sending missionaries to America, what a conviction to the US church.

[Gina Dalfonzo]

We like you too, Dennis. :-) That wasn't a rant against you. That was just a general rant against the hecticness (hecticity?) of life.

And thanks for your contribution!

[Steve (SBK)]

I believe there's a vowel change: hectacity. Just kidding... but if there were, what is that kind of... morphology called - out of curiosity, not being an English major?
(Also, ironically, I realize I just butchered the English language in that last sentence).

[Lee]

"But I encourage you to speak up at your church."

I do, Dennis, I do. (The Point isn't the only place where I natter on interminably.)

But the reaction I get is rather like the one I'd get by telling Microsoft they should stop selling their software, and give it away instead. (And please, everyone - I'm already a Linux-and-open-source guy, no need to start that rant on this site.) It's tough to integrate passion with policy+process+procedure.

That's why I asked Catherine about the church she and Zoe attend. I'm seeking the answer to the question asked in Michael Card's song about Peter in Cornelius's home (which Michael played in the Mormon Tabernacle, when Ravi Zacharias spoke there - and please, no rants about that, either): "What Am I Doing Here?"

[labrialumn]

The Bible and the Reformers talk about what the Church is.

One thing it isn't, is market-driven.

Unfortunately, in their zeal to serve, and this reevaluation shows that that is a motivation for them, they are still thinking like they are running a country club, and not an outpost of the Kingdom, in occupied territory.

[Dan Knight]

The cause of WCA repentance (& need for it is simple), they were not fulfilling Christ's commission, they were fulfilling Bill Hybels. The first thing I would tell Bill - if I were to advise him (and most pastors) - is: "resign". Give up your job as a pastor and start "making disciples"; Quit trying to lead a flock and start shepherding the flock; Get a real job in the real world and watch the influence you'll have, esp. when you have the guts to say to people: "follow me as I follow Christ". That is the commission of Christ, not witness, witness witness.
Incumbant in discipleship is evangelism, discipleship is not incumbant in evangelism.
What WCA's model has done is get a whole bunch of people thinking they are christians without counting the cost. Now WCA is wanting these babes to "self-feed", that's akin to giving your new-born or toddler or even your eight year old the keys to the family car and saying go buy your own pizza.
Best advice for Hybles and these CEO pastors: Quit and go work for corporate america.

[Rod Mills]

I think this is great news. Because Jesus said call no one Rabbi/Teacher aside from Him. The reforming Church/gathering needs this - freedom - no expectation to attend or follow religous dogma.

Look at Mars Hill in Grand Rapids for example. The bottom line exists still - how much of Christ exists in my Christianity not how much programs or Curch does.

[Ray T]

Having spent a few years growing in Christ in another famous "seeker-sensitive" church, namely Saddleback Church, I hope that my words will demonstrate God's grace towards me in growing my faith in Him and His word.

There IS a great goal of becoming "self-feeders," if Hybels has a good biblical definition of that, but without my ability to listen the context of what Hybels actually said I will attempt to suggest a biblical solution with biblical terminology. The author of Hebrews calls believers to become mature in our faith as believers rather than someone who is still accustomed to the milk of the word. Believers should be continually growing in their faith as well as allowing for mind change. In Romans 12, the apostle Paul calls all believers, likewise, to be transformed by the renewing of our mind. We must therefore submit ourselves to be grounded in exegetical study of God's Word. The grammar in this passage reveals that this renewing of the mind is done in submission to God doing the work, but we must individually and as a church body be faithful to submit ourselves and be in it and allowing His Spirit to teach us through His Word alone.

Also, the apostle Paul clearly defines the pastors and teachers as those in the role who equip the body to do the work. This is where some discipleship fits in, which entails many things including teaching how to study the Bible, evangelism, how we are to live, and more. The pastor/elder has a role God has gifted men to fulfill. That's fits into the other side of the coin of being in the word. As "labrialumn" noted, discipleship and evangelism work together and cannot be separated. We are all called to make disciples which include evangelism, not necessarily as the single end goal since God also calls us to worship with our life as a living and holy sacrifice (Rom 12:1). Nevertheless, the gospel of John clearly identifies our testimony of Christ being the reason he has us here on earth. In 2 Corinthians, Paul writes that we are to be pleading with others to be reconciled to God through Christ. Christ is the head and He is building the church despite our waywardness to adopt our own methods even for churches outside of WCA.

God is sovereign and has allowed WCA to pursue its method hopefully for the church to learn as we do in other trials we face in our lives. We must pray that God will continue to lead leaders within the WCA including Hybels and leaders outside WCA that have adopted any method that defies what the Bible teaches on the message of the cross (1 Cor 13) and its delivery method as God instructs through his Word. Also, as a body of believers, as Paul encourages the believers in 1 Thessalonians 5:13, we are to live in peace with one another and v:14 to be patient with all men. None of us have anything including wisdom and knowledge without Christ. He is the author and finisher of our faith. We must pray for grace and mercy for us all, and trust that God will do His work in His timing and his way and that Christ would receive all the glory despite the sins of adopting some church methodology that is unbiblical. We must thank the Spirit for revealing sin and for His conviction that has led to repentance (Eph 5:20). May we all follow the lead of His Spirit to the glory of Christ. Let's remember to take the log out of our own eyes, and examine ourselves, before we attempt to help others to do the same. Let us also be careful to determine whether this issue is a call to admonition, to encouragement, or to help (1 Thes. 5:14).

Looking forward to His Imminent Return