56 Comments

1. Posted by jason taylor on 2009-09-30 11:46:05

   Had been married twice before meeting each other? How did they do that?

2. Posted by Benjamin Ady on 2009-09-30 10:13:51

   Lee Quod, Glad to provide a little inspiration. =) I had some inspiration today too. I used the phrase "American style eschatological eisegesis", and then I thought to myself "Self, what a nice turn of phrase! I wonder if anyone else ever used it?" So I did a google search for the exact result (that is, with quote marks around it), and *TADA*! zero results--which probably means I coined it. Hooray! =) (the thread is officially and fully hijacked)

3. Posted by Lee """" Quod on 2009-09-29 22:00:12

   Benjamin, your upbringing and mine are much more alike than you realize. I was in my middle teens when I learned that my sister was actually my half-sister, and in my late twenties when I discovered that both my mother and my father had been married twice before meeting each other. Elephant in the room? We had a herd. // I'm inspired to see what happens if I type a double-quote after typing a double-quote; maybe Son-of-Typepad will crash...! Here goes: """" Woo hoo!! Let's do that again! """""""""" How about parentheses, like my old LISP editor? ((((())))) SWEET!

4. Posted by jason taylor on 2009-09-29 19:46:55

   Benjamin, I meant a looming debate, not a looming flame. That is why I chose not to answer it further. The debate just wasn't on a subject which interested me and it did not look like there was much room for interesting intellectual gymnastics on the subject. Low empathy is certainly a disadvantage in situations when empathy is desireable. If you are neither a diplomat, nor a merchant, nor a therapist, nor a professional poker player, I suppose you can get along without. Sometimes I feel like debating and sometimes not.

5. Posted by Benjamin Ady on 2009-09-29 19:14:50

   Jason, Was there an argument looming or happening? Given that most people think limitations are bad luck, why do you think limitations are bad luck? I wonder what Joni Tada would say? Lee, I think I kind of had the opposite experience from you. I spent much of my life inside a family and church system where questions were discouraged unless they were on the pre approved list, where no one ever wanted to talk about feelings, or much of anything else, really, and where there was a clearly defined and lived by range of acceptable answers. Now as a grownup I'm finally getting "permission" to ask questions, to let other people speak for themselves, to believe that if they want me to stop asking, they'll say so. By the way--to the editor/tech person: the software does this unbelievably annoying thing where when you type one quotation mark ", it automatically makes two quotation marks "", putting the cursor between them. Can you make that stop? If I want two quotation marks, I'll type two =).

6. Posted by LeeQuod on 2009-09-29 17:26:04

   Benjamin, I've found that some questions revive painful memories. I don't ask my wife's uncle about being a Navy SEAL in Vietnam, anymore. If he volunteers, you bet I listen. I maintain a respectful silence in the presence of Holocaust survivors, but listened intently to my professor who spoke freely of his time in the camps. I have a long list of people and their individual subjects that I avoid. I've rushed in with both feet in my mouth into far too many situations, only to see someone's eyes flood with tears or look away in anger or pain. Meg's right that you're onto something big with your point about listening. My intent, though, was to get you to stop talking directly to Zoe and instead talk to me. Glad I succeeded. Furthermore, I'll take your point one step further and add that it's possible to listen with the heart. Mine says that Zoe needs neither answers or questions from all of us, but instead a virtual hug. I believe those who truly love will join in.

7. Posted by jason taylor on 2009-09-29 16:21:30

   Because it is a limitation and most people think limitations bad luck. If you do not think so then good luck to you. Arguing over whether low empathy is a disadvantage is not of interest to me.

8. Posted by Steve (SBK) on 2009-09-29 16:09:19

   Benjamin, I took LeeQuod's hypothetical story as a chance to examine what might be going on in someone who holds certain things to be true and the repudiation of those truths to be bad. Can you explain how you don't see what he was getting at, please?

9. Posted by Benjamin Ady on 2009-09-29 15:56:01

   Lee Quod, Do you think asking sincere, non judgmental questions can cause someone emotional harm? Jason, Why do you believe that having a limitation that not everyone else has is bad luck?

10. Posted by Meg on 2009-09-29 15:16:07

    "I'm kind of into the idea that no one can explain anyone's emotions apart from their own." I think this is wonderful, because it means Benjamin listens to what people are actually saying, rather than assuming he knows what they think and feel. I think Benjamin's words are the key to truly listening and truly loving!

11. Posted by jason taylor on 2009-09-29 13:52:43

    "Jason, I'm uber delighted to have maybe been described as mildly autistic. Thank you! Why do you think it's "bad luck" to not understand someone else's feelings? " Actually I just said that was a theory. I didn't intend to say you were autistic and I was in fact afraid it would sound patronizing when I wrote it. I only pointed out that it was ONE possibility. And it is bad luck because it is a limitation that not everyone else has.

12. Posted by LeeQuod on 2009-09-29 13:13:14

    Benjamin, my apologies for being overly terse. (And apparently my long reply to you from last night has disappeared. That's OK; I over-disclosed in it.) Suffice it to say that I'm dealing with a family member who is extremely self-absorbed, and your description helped me to articulate some issues at a critical time. So I meant "You rock" sincerely. But I do think that you should accept any attempts to shield Zoe from further emotional harm as indications of how highly she's valued, even if the attempts are clumsy. They're also designed to value you as well, since another option is to flat-out tell you to leave her alone - but that would be rude. I'd recommend that you ask your questions in another thread - even an old one that deals with Islam. You're asking the right questions - just in the wrong place.

13. Posted by Benjamin Ady on 2009-09-29 12:45:50

    Jason, I'm uber delighted to have maybe been described as mildly autistic. Thank you! Why do you think it's "bad luck" to not understand someone else's feelings?

14. Posted by jason taylor on 2009-09-28 21:18:20

    No LeeQuod, that is not "unsympathetic". That is simply "introspective" or at worst "cold personality" or possibly "mildly autistic" depending on the person. It also can imply culture dissonance. But it is not necessarily unsympathetic. Not comprehending someone else's feelings is just bad luck not callousness

15. Posted by Benjamin Ady on 2009-09-28 19:19:38

    Lee Quod, That's fascinating =). Would I be correct in deducing that for you sympathy is (often, anyways) when you understand someone's feelings without any explanation/imput from them? My own most remembered/significant experiences of sympathy usually happen when I'm deeply involved in working toward understanding someone's feelings by listening and listening and asking lots of non-judgmental questions so i can really get at the totality of their feeling and the beliefs that drive it. Sometimes when I'm doing that with someone, I get to this moment when they say something and I sort of come to this fuller understanding of how-they-see-the-world and thus why they feel that feeling, and I'll suddenly be overwhelmed with experiencing myself the emotion they were/are feeling. My experience is that this latter is a much richer and truer experience for me than when I think I understand what someone is experiencing right away. Hence the question I asked =).

16. Posted by LeeQuod on 2009-09-28 16:38:03

    Benjamin, you wrote: "I'm kind of into the idea that no one can explain anyone's emotions apart from their own." Thank you, sir; I was looking for a good definition of the word "unsympathetic". You rock; too.

17. Posted by Benjamin Ady on 2009-09-28 16:05:39

    Hey Jason, Lee Quod, Thanks for the explanations. I'm kind of into the idea that no one can explain anyone's emotions apart from their own. So your explanations don't really help with what I wanted to know. But thanks for trying. You rock =).

18. Posted by LeeQuod on 2009-09-27 22:14:30

    Benjamin, I think I can help you somewhat with the "disheartened" question: Imagine that for the past four years you had been working with me to get me to become a liberal. Four years - what were you doing back in 2005? Probably, you were dreading another four years of the GWB Administration. So you work with me to help me understand the essentials of why I should vote Democrat, why certain ballot measures would have dire consequences, why getting the Republicans out of the White House and out of Congress was critical, and so on. And one day I tell you that I have a new girlfriend, she's introduced me to Rush Limbaugh, and now I support Sarah Palin for President. You look back on four years of spending time with me, answering my questions, taking me to political events, and so on. How would you feel? Worse, imagine looking forward to me consistently supporting everything you oppose, and opposing all that you support. Islam is a religion of works, with no guarantee of success. (Compare to Diane's statement about eternal security.) You can faithfully follow the Five Pillars your entire life, and have no idea if you'll get to Heaven. Its social consequences in this lifetime can be dire, particularly for women. And since it does not have the Way, follow the Truth or bring the Life, it is obviously not going to lead anyone to the Father. Instead, Islam calls for political conquest and enforced religious obedience. When you become a Muslim, you cannot change your mind; apostasy is punishable by death. (Contrast this with many Christians who are now atheists or agnostics.) And the evidence from many European and Asian countries demonstrates that Moslems are quite willing to shove Islam down peoples' throats. So by converting to Islam Zoe's young friend stands to lose her freedom to choose her religion and all the freedoms for her gender that feminists (including Anne Morse, incidentally) have fought for over the years. This is not a fate that any caring person would wish on someone else. But I think you and I should await a better opportunity to discuss this more via some other thread, out of sensitivity for Zoe's feelings. (At that time I'll tell you about my friend from a Middle Eastern country who came to the USA and pastors a church for converts from Islam to Christianity. The services are held in secret, due to the strong possibility of violence against the congregation - in the USA!) I hope and pray that indeed this is merely something a 12-year-old might say without thinking, and that in the end (and hopefully sooner rather than later) Zoe's labor will be rewarded. Hundreds and hundreds of Muslims are becoming Christians in Islamic countries, on the basis of dreams about Christ, where the dreams come unbidden. Perhaps Zoe's friend will have such a dream of Jesus asking her to continue to follow him.

19. Posted by jason taylor on 2009-09-27 21:28:52

    Well Benjamin, in the first place, while not all of us are QUITE exclusivists some are and others are just a wee bit nervous. That is an obvious point. Then too, any parent who sees their child leave the way they were brought up in is likely to react emotionally. It is not even a matter of religion. Benjamin Franklin (another Benjamin, don't you know)had a rather frightful reaction when his son took the King's side. A sad story, to be sure and one which shows that even someone like him could be torn. Similar stories abound. So the whole thing isn't all that surprising on any level.

20. Posted by Benjamin "a lot of question" Ady on 2009-09-27 18:41:56

    I wish that I had started off asking "Zoe, why are you disheartened?" It feels to me like I've kind of been somewhat unpresent so as to have created a bit of a trust bank deficit, which leaves me unable to ask the question. Alas.

21. Posted by jason taylor on 2009-09-26 11:07:23

    Actually, I suppose Zoe's daughter might have a combination of motives ranging for instance from the mundane(adolescent orneryness), to the in-between(aesthetics), to actual spiritual seeking. She might not even be sure herself why. And perhaps all that can be done is to pray.

22. Posted by jason taylor on 2009-09-26 10:58:18

    Well, I can imagine feeling similarly about someone from a culture I was unusually interested in Benjamin. It simply sounds odd when said out loud.

23. Posted by Benjamin "Scalphunter" Ady on 2009-09-25 23:49:22

    Jason, I think perhaps you mean it might be a bit offputting to know someone only wanted to get to know me because I was Muslim, Christian, atheist, what have you. I kind of see what you are saying. And yet I guess if that is a really big, important part of a person's life/story, they might be more delighted rather than put off by my interest in them springing from that, as long as of course, I was actually genuinely interested to know and grow to love them in their totality. "Scalp" to me indicates a sort of ... collecting of bits of people who are dead, as trophies of my prowess, or even in the sense that you used it still indicates a collecting of people for my own purposes, without really considering their wishes or letting the relationship be a two way street. I believe I've become better at the whole relationship thing than I used to be, and I hope I approach people with genuine interest and respect, although I didn't exactly nail that very well with Zoe in this thread. Progress not perfection, right? =)

24. Posted by jason taylor on 2009-09-25 19:22:41

    On the other hand Benjamin, I can see your point. A person's cultural background can have an aesthetic attraction. It just isn't the sort of thing I'd say out loud without feeling odd. As it happens I did once know a couple Moslems on the internet, one a Berber and one a Turk. And there is a storekeeper a block away who is Lebanese by my guess: their shopkeepers get around. Other Moslems say it's the Phoniciean blood. If so that's rather a let down from being the first ones round Cape Hope, bringing elephants over the Alps, and launching fleets of Triemes. But Lebanese still have a bit of chutzpah in them.

25. Posted by jason taylor on 2009-09-25 17:42:29

    Maybe it's just me, Benjamen but doesn't that sound a wee bit like scalphunting? He might just not take kindly to hearing you say,"one of my life goals is to be friends with a Muslim." Of course I'm not an Islamophile as such, so that would be merely interesting to me and not a life goal.

26. Posted by Benjamin Ady on 2009-09-25 16:15:02

    Just to throw in my two cents worth, discussions about "eternal security" seem to me to be about 5 standard deviations out from the norm on the reality distribution. I have a hard time wrapping my head around year 2010 security. Am I the only one that has this going on? One of my life goals is to become good friends with a person who is Muslim. Maybe that's why I so rudely blew right past Zoe's disheartedness. I felt excited, wishing it had happened to me. Ah well.

27. Posted by jason taylor on 2009-09-25 13:16:03

    It's not about scriptural support Diane. Quite a few disputes have both claiming Biblical support. It is pointing out that it still is not necessarily comforting. On the other hand different things help different people and maybe it will be comforting.

28. Posted by Diane Singer on 2009-09-25 10:46:01

    Jason, Eternal security as "theological lore"???? Honestly, I don't know how I'm supposed to respond to that given the extensive biblical support for the doctrine of eternal security. However, since I'm really not interested in starting a dissertation-level exchange on the blog, I guess we'll just have to "agree to disagree" on this one.

29. Posted by jason taylor on 2009-09-25 10:27:40

    Oddly enough Zoe, I understand better then I sound like though I don't have a daughter. I can sound rather cold-blooded simply because I am an introvert. But I can identify with it.

30. Posted by Zoe on 2009-09-25 09:48:55

    LeeQuod, thanks for pointing out the emotional side of this for me. Yes, it was extremely difficult to hear this from a little girl I consider quite like a daughter. So, it has been painful. At the same time, I'm equally compelled to believe that the God who called me to this relationship is the same God who "began a good work...and will complete it." So, with that in mind, I care--very deeply--but I am also very hopeful, and am not going to let this shake me. I'm not willing to call her an apostate at this juncture. Rather, I think she's a confused kid, who will--hopefully--one day look back on this questioning as a stepping stone toward a stronger, more vibrant faith in Christ. Benjamin, I appreciate your apology, and realize you were not trying to be insensitive. Yes, as LeeQuod said, these things are far more than intellectual exercises, especially when my worldview compels me to believe that one's faith is of dire and eternal significance. However, I know you were simply hoping to engage in healthy discussion, which is--usually--a good thing. Maybe with a less personal situation I would be willing to delve in. Diane, amen!

31. Posted by jason taylor on 2009-09-25 09:25:20

    Diane, not everyone believes in Eternal Security and in any case theological lore can be a limited asset at such times.

32. Posted by Diane Singer on 2009-09-25 08:29:55

    Zoe, While I concur that "keep on loving her and pray" is the best approach, I'm curious about her statement:"I'm not a Christian anymore." If she truly accepted Christ, then she's STILL a Christian, whether she acknowledges her faith in Him or not. I know some of our bloggers will probably object to that statement b/c they believe we can lose our salvation. But, since salvation is by grace, then we can neither earn it, deserve it, nor -- once obtained by faith in Christ -- lose it. Since that's true, the Holy Spirit is inside her and at work to sort out whatever confusion she is experiencing. It may take a while (many years in fact) for this prodigal daughter to return to Him, but we can take comfort in knowing that our loving heavenly Father has not "lost" her or stopped loving her as His child (Romans 8:38-39).

33. Posted by Benjamin "Thank you" Ady on 2009-09-25 06:42:27

    Lee Quod, thank you for your gracious apology =). You and Gina are right. I totally and completely failed to notice at *all* Zoe's self description as "disheartened" Zoe. Sorry I completely blew right past your disheartedness.

34. Posted by Gina on 2009-09-24 21:26:48

    If I might throw in my two cents here -- Benjamin, LeeQuod's right that there are deep emotions and deep anxieties involved for a Christian in a case like this. (Although the Bible instructs us not to be anxious, that can be a struggle sometimes.) It's more than an academic exercise -- it's a matter of one's eternal welfare.

35. Posted by Lee "I know; I stepped between you and the arrows" Quod on 2009-09-24 18:52:50

    Benjamin, I am sorry for offending you; please accept my most humble apology. It's just that I could almost *feel* a flame-war about to erupt, with you as the invaded country, so I was doing my best to avoid that. In addition, I felt that your repeated questioning of Zoe was well-intentioned, but was also, from my perspective at least, rather insensitive; it reminded me of those news conferences where they interview the grieving widow. Committed Christians like Zoe experience all kinds of negative emotions when someone leaves the faith, and I didn't see what I felt was enough recognition of that by others in their responses, save for a few. And your questions, while almost certainly sincere, are under the circumstances just adding insult to injury, unless they're heavily qualified. "So, ma'am, tell us how it feels to lose your husband" focuses on the experience itself, not upon the person experiencing it. It is, in some ways, worse than being hypothesized about and referred to in third person. The only thing worse, of course, is an all-out religious war, with me shielding you and Gina trying to get everyone to stop shooting, and Zoe wondering if she should have said anything after all. So I'm sorry, my dear friend, but more feelings were at stake than yours.

36. Posted by Wanda on 2009-09-24 18:27:55

    Zoe, I wish I knew of some books to recommend. I know we studied on line a little about the differences which helped. Mainly, because Muslims believe Jesus was a prophet the mentor emphasized that Jesus IS God. Talked about the mystery of the trinity. Kids need to experience the power of God in their lives. This is where our trust in Jesus gets tested - do we trust Him enough not to overprotect but allow a child to walk into situations where s/he might experience the power of God. Also kids need to be taugh that God, in His love, doesn't always "fix" things for us. But He does have a purpose in everything that happens. We so often try to create psuedo worlds for kids - in so doing we do more harm than good. In a paper I wrote on competition and childhood I tell a true story of how I was taught about the importance of being real with kids. You can access it here http://kidtrek.org/WhatWeBelieve/White.html if interested. Click on the Competition a Tool for Emotional Growth. I will be praying the Lord gives you wisdom

37. Posted by Benjamin "I'm actually right here" Ady on 2009-09-24 16:43:50

    Lee Quod, I would totally love it if in the future you could speak to me directly, rather than hypothesizing at length about me using third person pronouns. Doing that would help me feel a lot more respected. Would you be willing to do that in the future?

38. Posted by LeeQuod on 2009-09-24 15:08:41

    And, dearest Zoe, if you do respond to Benjamin Ady (in spite of the fact that this must still be a very painful topic to you, a fact I remember in my prayers), please recall that Benjamin does not necessarily believe Jesus meant it when he said (or, as Benjamin might correct me, "*if* he said") "I am the Way, the Truth and the Life; no man comes to the Father but by me". And in fact, Benjamin does not necessarily see the Bible as authoritative. From that perspective, Christianity is more-or-less one religion among many (rather than a relationship with God versus one of many systems of rules for living), and therefore a child's choice of any religion is equally legitimate. That perspective sees you not as saving someone from a possibly hellish life on Earth and literal Hell thereafter, but rather as engaging in an exercise of learning and discussing the merits and demerits of various belief systems - which is clearly none too urgent. Plus, Benjamin (who I count as a good friend, in spite of the fact that he's wrong around 90% of the time; if Cal Thomas can be friends with Bob Beckel,...) may or may not follow the reports of honor killings, or if he does, immediately compares that to the Crusades (which were, oops, in response to an Islamic initiative) or the Inquisition (which, while it resulted in a few heretics being put to death, gave repeated opportunities for repentance during an extended trial - not a kangaroo court or vigilante slaying) or the Salem witch trials (see previous). It's probably worth highlighting that Christian apostasy is an occasion for sorrow, just as you are sorrowing, while saying "I'm not a Muslim anymore" produces a rather different result, even here in the USA. Again, I know you're quite a sensitive soul, Zoe, so I hope this doesn't hurt too much to discuss. This young lady is very blessed to know you.

39. Posted by Benjamin Ady on 2009-09-24 13:51:25

    Zoe, thanks so much for the clarification! I have a couple more questions. I'm wondering why you are asking "What if she is seriously considering becoming a Muslim?"? Does her considering that strike you as a negative thing, or as a beautiful, amazing thing? I suppose that also leads to the question--"What if she does become a Muslim?" Would that be scary and awful, or beautiful and fascinating? Could it open a door for you to explore Islam in a fascinated, curious way, with her, with no fear? Are you willing to help her learn what Islam is from the perspective of at least looking at both the best and the worst in Islam? What if you were to unbalance that exploration a bit toward the best/positive side--would that be ok? Are you willing to help her give Islam at least as fair a consideration as you would want a Muslim mentor of a young person to help their explorer give to Christianity, if that was their desire/interest? It sounds like you maybe want to focus on the differences between Islam and Christianity. I'm wondering why that is. Why that as opposed to focusing on the similarities between Islam and Christianity? I hope I'm not asking too many questions. I'm very much wanting to be genuinely curious here =)

40. Posted by Zoe on 2009-09-24 12:48:56

    Wanda, based on your stated experience, I'd love any recommendations on good books I can be reading that might help me navigate these things with my friend. Specifically, do you know of any books that address how to talk about the differences between Islam and Christianity with pre-teens?

41. Posted by Zoe on 2009-09-24 12:46:19

    All, Thanks for all of your wisdom, encouragement, and kindness. It's a strange thing that you can shoot a concern out to the blogosphere and find a wealth of Christian community along the way. I am hopeful for my little friend that this questioning will serve to strengthen her faith in the long run. It will give me an opportunity to brush up on my understanding of Islam, and an even greater opportunity to love her in ways that supercede religious quabblings. At the end of the day, she's my friend, and no phase, however long it may last, will change that. Benjamin, to your question, What do I mean by "What if she's not?" I meant, What if she's not just trying to impress someone, or prove her independence? What if she's seriously considering becoming a Muslim? Which I somewhat doubt, given that I don't think she really knows what it is. Hope that clarifies.

42. Posted by Wanda on 2009-09-24 11:32:17

    I train adults to walk through life with at-risk kids - just as you are doing. I had a mentor who was working with a 12 year old from a Muslim family. The boy in all his actions and statements indicated that he believed Jesus was God but he would not take the step of commitment. One day the mentor asked him, "Do you know that I will love you whether you follow Jesus or not?" His reply was yes. Then the mentor asked, "Do you think your family will still love you if you follow Jesus?" His response was "No" That spoke volumes and we are believing that this child knows the truth and will one day be abe to follow the one true God. Your mentee may feel the need for her stepfather's acceptance and love. Hang in there and pray, pray, pray.

43. Posted by Brian on 2009-09-23 22:07:43

    Present the truth of the gospel. that is all you can do. The Holy Spirit will take it form there.

44. Posted by Benjamin "What if" Ady on 2009-09-23 15:20:47

    Zoe, Thanks for sharing a bit of your story with us! =) I love it that you don't want to shove Christianity down your young explorer's throat. =) I'm really curious about this question you asked: "What if she's not?" I'm wondering 2 things--first if you could elaborate on the question. "What if she's not _______?"? and secondly if you could answer it for yourself--so what if she's not whatever goes in the blank? What does that mean to you? How do you feel about that?

45. Posted by wendy on 2009-09-23 13:44:34

    Zoe, I am not discounting what your friend is saying but as a parent, it has been my experience that sometimes when kids are scared or unsure about a situation, they will make a statement like that or something like "i just really don't believe in God anymore". What she might be doing is testing you to see if you are faithful and really believe yourself what you've been telling her. When my husband lost his job years ago, my daughter (young Christian teen at the time) said to me that day something like "I don't believe in God. He's not here now and he's not with us". I was taken aback but I stated without hesitation that I knew He was with us and that He would see us through and that even though she may not feel Him, He was there." She didn't say anything further about it as we kept talking. Later on it occurred to me that she just wanted to know that in the midst of a scary situation, I was not changing my mind and that I still believed what I said I believed. Now of course each situation is different but taking into the account that your friend is only 12 and you've provided a solid, mature, young Christian woman role model for her for the past 4 years, you may want to just see where it goes from here. And reassure her that no matter what she does or says, you are you and you are not changing your beliefs because you know them to be true. Just a thought!

46. Posted by Sylvia on 2009-09-23 13:12:34

    I think that what Gene and Merry have to say is very good, it shows that you are interested in what she is learning deciding and keeps a loving none judgemental dialogue going and allows you to answer specific questions or specific pieces of misinformation with out seeming judgemental or assuming what she does or doesn't know. It also will show you, through the spirit, specific places to pray for her as she sorts this all through. I think you are right to not pit yourself against her stepdad, satan would love to use that, prayer, love and letting her know you are still her friend and will talk to her about anything are key!

47. Posted by Kert on 2009-09-23 11:57:58

    I have recently been reading Mere Christianity and Lewis points out that anyone who is truely seeking God will find Jesus. This may be a little controversal but I believe there is truth in this. When we seek good and the things of God we will ultimately find him if our desire is sincere, even if we go down some incorrect paths. I would approach the girl as if you assume what she did was sincere and for good reasons, while assuring her you have not had a change of heart. Continue to teach her as before but with respect. Focus on the promises we have as Christians of eternal life, freedom from sin, help in time of trouble, etc. Then ask what she has found that is like or better than what Christianity offers. Do it firmly but sincerely. She should be able to understood what she has given up and be able to learn from this. I think it is also quite obvious that this girl is not being sincere herself. I don't know many 12 year olds that can but you still must treat her as if she is. Either way this should be a growing experience and she will better be able to understand what Christianity is and why it offers more than other religions.

48. Posted by Maureen on 2009-09-23 11:50:47

    As the mother of four, I say just love, love, love her. There will be a time when she is older that she will have questions. You need to be someone to whom she can come and know that a) she can ask you anything b) you will be truthful. YOU CAN NEVER GO WRONG LOVING SOMEONE. It's what Jesus would do.

49. Posted by Claymore on 2009-09-23 11:47:05

    Give the situation to God, and ask for wisdom. The battle belongs to the Lord. Love unconditionally and pray for the whole household. Continue to sow the Word into her life. "so shall my word be that goeth forth out of my mouth: it shall not return unto me void, but it shall accomplish that which I please, and it shall prosper in the thing whereto I sent it. (Isaiah 55:11) So belief comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of Christ. (Romans 10:17)

50. Posted by LeeQuod on 2009-09-23 11:25:04

    John 13:35, dear Zoe; keep loving her. I doubt heavyduty apologetics would work all that well with a middle-schooler, but love speaks volumes. And I believe I'd tell her that you'll still love her even if she becomes a Muslim. (She may or may not know Islam's policy toward those who want to become ex-Muslims; dunno if you can express that to her without terrifying her.) If she's on the intellectual side, perhaps you could discuss the different treatment of women (and even the different punishment for offenders, bringing in your PFM experiences). Or you could discuss faith versus works; Christianity has only one pillar, and it's a person. But I think the biggie is to show that you won't sever the relationship no matter what she says she is. Hmmm - and I think I'd continue to do what you've already done, which is to alert us to pray for you and her. God bless you for investing in her.

51. Posted by Steve on 2009-09-23 10:48:33

    A father's authority does not extend to soul-murder, just as it does not extend to murdering the body. At 12, let her hear Jesus' words. Islam does not have them. Then there may be times to compare how Jesus treated women with how al Qu'ran says to treat women, and what happens in Muslim countries under Muslim law.

52. Posted by Merry on 2009-09-23 10:32:29

    Ask her to state the differences between Islam and Christianity. If she can state them clearly, she has done some searching and come to a conclusion. If she cannot clearly state the differences, then she really has not made a decision to follow the ways of Islam. Show some interest in wanting to know about her discoveries about Islam, or else she will get the impression that you are not interested in her or her decisions. As we learn, the key to evangelism is relationship-building. Be sure to keep the lines of communication open so that the relationship can continue.

53. Posted by Elizabeth on 2009-09-23 10:31:56

    Wow... hard to deal with... I think it's probably a phase as well. At 12, who really knows anything, ya know? But on the off chance that is not, I like the post Gene made. My understanding is most muslims don't like the Christian faith. So it is very likely she is getting misinformation about it. I would also pray and consider talking to her about the extremists. Those involved in their respective jihad's. Even talking to her about how much hate the muslims have for the Jews, and how 9/11 was about that. (according to bin laden) Ask her what God hates... then ask her what muslims hate... She might end up talking herself out of believing in a false god. Hope I helped. (my kids are all under 5 so i've not had to deal with this before!) God bless you!! Keep reading that Bible with her!!!

54. Posted by jason taylor on 2009-09-23 10:01:26

    Actually that is a very good answer Gene. Also it might be considered that she did not say, "I wanna be a terrorist when I grow up." She said she wanted to be a Muslim and there difference enough not to make to many unwarranted assumption. Could it be that being a Christian who doesn't take that seriously is not all that better then being a Muslim who at least will do so as almost all converts take their new religion seriously unless they are converts-of-self-interest types(I.E. "Turn Turk and you won't have to tug an oar")? And then there is the possibility that she finds Islam simply more aesthetically pleasing. That is not impossible as there are appealing things about Islam. I would myself find it an odd choice for a female as Islam is simply not a very feminine religion in it's ethos(I wonder what Omar Sharif would say about "Religion of Peace"). But there is no accounting for taste. I think, unfortunately that it is likely the result of an incompetent and rather poltroonish school system that only became interested in Islam when it was discovered(shock, shock) that Moslems might actually cause trouble. But that is not necessarily the case.

55. Posted by Gene on 2009-09-23 09:19:03

    I would start by asking her what is lacking in Christianity that she finds in Islam. It is possible that you can bridge the gap by helping her find the answers in Christ that she is seeking in Islam. It is possible that she has been given misinformation about the Christian life from her stepfather. I'm not insinuating that her stepfather is deliberately deceiving her, but that he is just passing down the information that he himself has been given and has blindly accepted.

56. Posted by jason taylor on 2009-09-23 08:38:12

    Kidnap her? Did you ask her why. I mean if she had serious reasons? While it likely is mere peer pressure there is no certainty of that and in any case it would be patronizing to stress that